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Aliens: Built to be a bio-engineered weapon?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:14 pm    Post subject: Aliens: Built to be a bio-engineered weapon? Reply with quote

Okay, this question has been buzzing in my mind for years: could the xenomorphs actually be the result of bio-weapon expiriments by some unidentified alien species?

It's hard say that a species that survives on both lv-426 and earth atmospheres without problem, grows to maturity in mere hours, and is that capable of killing sentient organisms so efficiently is the product of natural evolution.

Since when could a natural species use acidic components in blood? Silicon lifeforms could be resistant or immune, but silicon takes way longer to form biological molecules than carbon does.

In all the Alien movies, weyland yutani seems interested in using the xenomorph for the bio-weapons division. It seems only natural that the entire xenomorph species was designed for the purpose.

My theory was that an alien species took a base creature, and modifed the physiology heavily for use as a weapon. The basic strategy with the xeno would be to infest an area (ground installation, orbital station, star ship, etc.) and sit back and let the xeno's work up hell. Eventually the xeno would die off when there was no hosts, but not without leaving a stinking pile of eggs, which would last an extraordinarily long time, thus rendering the area inhosptable.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a very plausible theory. I am pretty sure that the idea has been posed before. It makes much more sense than does the notion of the xenos being a naturally occuring species.

To all naysayers: YES we are taking about a fictional species here, but we are applying scientific standards to the subject. Look up the concept of "magical realism" in a literature textbook. If this makes us nerds, EAT IT! Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... Sounds logical. Three things:

1-Facehuggers would have been extinct by the time evolution gave them acidic blood. U know how long evolution takes.

2-No life form can hit adulthood within mere hours. It should take days at least.

3-If aliens grow so fast, shouldn't they die faster and younger? Faster growth rate, shorter lifespan.

If you're the sma guest who called Xeno Morph a dick, you're not bastardised anymore. You're now a bastardised nerd. Sounds like u pay attention in Bio class!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herpetologist wrote:
1-Facehuggers would have been extinct by the time evolution gave them acidic blood. U know how long evolution takes.


I'm not sure what you mean here, you mean that facehuggers wouldn't have survived on their own without the symbiotic relationship with the full-fleged Xenos? I think they might have, they seem pretty ferocious all on their own.

Quote:
2-No life form can hit adulthood within mere hours. It should take days at least.


Maybe nothing on earth, and I'm not sure there isn't (don't mushrooms mature in one day?) but there's no rule that says an extraterrestrial species can't.

Quote:
3-If aliens grow so fast, shouldn't they die faster and younger? Faster growth rate, shorter lifespan.


They do. There's a bit that got cut out of the original Alien that shows that the xeno was old and slow by the end of the movie, which is why it didn't leap out and attack Ripley right away. It had reached the end of its lifespan by that time. Probably had arthritis.

I like the idea that the xenos are engineered, perhaps by the Space Jockeys like popular theory says, but I don't think it's impossible that they evolved all on their own. Nature is perfection when left to her own devices. I have no doubt that correct circumstances could produce the perfect organism. If there were such a savage environment that such a thing as the xenos could come out of it, don't you think the rest of the universe is pretty much their playground?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They May Be Gods

This is a nice story. I think this is very plausible. I actually took the time to read through it, and I'm glad. In short: the Space Jockey's are actually called "Sophiristines" and they created the Xenomorph to use against their enemy, the Yautja. It's a real nice "what if" story. I really recommend reading it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herpetologist wrote:
2-No life form can hit adulthood within mere hours. It should take days at least.

Well, in the original film, the alien was supposed to have a lifespan of 3 days.

It's only in the sequels that they've lived longer.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I'm not the guy who called the xenomorphs dicks. *This is the guy who started the thread*

Okay, mushrooms can mature in one day. But mushrooms are a much less sophisticated organism than what these xeno's portray themselves as. If the xenomorphs were a naturally occuring species, they must have had a lot more time to evolve than if they were an 'artificial' bio-weapon. It would still be possible, and perhaps the xeno, over many millions of years, became accustomed to interplanetary survival. If they started being ferried about all over the galaxy by alien species (perhaps as a bio-weapon?), they would need to become some tough sons of a bitches, being able to adapt to any new situation.

Nature may breed perfection, but I beleive the xenomorphs to be far from perfect. Sure they may be the most capable killers in the galaxy, but they are still reproductively dependant on other organisms. Many insects on earth require hosts in order for their offspring to hatch, but earth has ecosystems that have more than enough inhabitants to satify those parasties requirments. The xenomorphs though, in the vast barren reaches of space, usually have very few neihbouring organisms, if any.

The obvservation that the xenomorphs survived longer in Aliens than in Alien may not be valid. We only see a fraction the total estimated population of xenomorphs on lv-426 (I'm too lazy right now to check the actual total population). We also observe that the xenomorphs keep their hosts alive in cocoons, BEFORE they are infested. This could suggest that the xenomorphs may only infest a portion of the host population, keep the rest alive until later, when the first batch of drones are dying, the next batch are born, and etc. etc.
We do not know the time period between the invasion of the lv-426 colony so this theory may be plausible. (The space trip requires "hyper sleep" suggesting a space trip between earth and lv-426 to be a period of weeks or months, if the trip took days the ship would just need a little more cargo for life support, and normal sleeping can be used instead of cryogenic hibernation. If the trip took years, then how the hell would we even want to go to lv-426 when earth was so far away?)

Now my further argument for the bio-engineered theory: the xenomorphs are generally viewed to be built for speed. Why would they need to exterminate other organisms so fast? Short lifespans also seem a little inefficient for a natural organism, again, if the xenomorphs were built to exterminate area's fast, they would need to mature fast, do their job, and after that who cares what happens to them, as long as the area has a batch of eggs ready to infest intruders.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a long time ago Aliens were endangered. Then a biologist gathered thousands of eggs, flew into space, and got murdered by one of the hatched huggers. Without a pilot, the ship crashed on LV-426. But, in his death throes, the pilot managed to activate a warning beacon, saying GO AWAY. But the Nostromo thought it was a distress call, and Kane got hugged. Thats my story.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Guest: I think the time that passed btween Alien and Aliens is something like 70 or 80 years. That asshole from the company (forgot his name) told Riply this. Also, in the Director's Cut, they mention Riply's daughter. And when Riply left with the Nostromo, she said she would be back for her 12th birthday I believe. But in Aliens her daughter already died when Riply came back.

@Herpetologist: have you read the story for which I gave the link earlier? Caus in the story they say almost the same thing...
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herpetologist wrote:


2-No life form can hit adulthood within mere hours. It should take days at least.

Of course they can!! some species of mosquitos can, they achieve adulthood in hours
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, like those one-day flies... don't know if they're called that in English... I just literally translated it from Dutch...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they're like godzilla. Weyland-Yutani might have dumped nuclear wate on Aliens and spawned the 1st queen, who layed all those eggs in Alien.
That's why w-y must have sent the nostromo there. Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, Godzilla(the Japanese one) FEEDS on radiation. Unless you mean the american one... Anyhoo, I could see the whole Preds vs. Jockys thing happening and the Jockys made the xenos...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Nopn bastardised nerd speaking.. author of thread...*

But it would be difficult for an organism as large and complex as a xenomorph to actually develop in mere hours.

I can accept the main emphasis of that story: jocky vs yaujta, and jocky create xenos. But the actualy story itself seems like it was written by a kid who's knowledge is limited to magazines and star trek.

Really, this guy was really trying to make a techno-manual instead of a story, then his characters seem to me like they were really 21st century humans who got dumped onto an alien ship... ooh aah... force fields and gravimetrics oh my! Seriosuly, a civiliation that traveled through space for a significant amount of time would condider these high tech conundrums to be completely normal, and nothing truely fantastic.

These sophristines use nanobots to construct these biomechanicle terrors, and nanobots are absolute shit for construction. They must construct the alien bit by it on a near cellular scale, don't tell me thats an efficient means of construction. Acid for electric power? Acid is the catylyst for two electrodes in a battery, not the actual power source. Collecting materials from the surrounding environment? I laughed at that out loud. How the hell are you going to come up with about (say the ratio of biological components to mechanical components in a xenomorph is 1:1) 50kg of material in mere hours with somthing as small as a chestburster?

In part three, the author consistently talks aobut 'gravitational engines'. I thought the term was gravimetric. On paper, they ARE feasible. You could contract space-time in front of the vessel with a huge gravitional well, and expand space-time behind the vessel, therefore creating a 'wave' the ship can ride on between two points. Distort space-time enough, and you can, to an outside observer, travel at super-luminal veloicty. But to expand space time behind the ship, you would need somthing called 'negative energy' or 'negative mass'. Negative enrgy, on paper, can exist during microscopic 'quantum fluctions' of empty space (if you remove all mass and energy from an area, you're going to still be stuck with some negative energy). Harnessing these quantum fluctuations would be difficult, bordering on immposible. To get enough negative enrgy for gravimetric drive, the volume of empty space would be enormous.

Still, if you were to use gravimetric drive, you would require HUGE energy expenditures. For an acceleration rate of 9.81 km/s2 you'd need the mass of earth. Not exactly easy is it? If you were to use gravimetric drive near a planet, you're inveitably going to fuck up the planet's orbit.
Here's how it goes. If you use gravimetrics to pull you up from the surface, you're going to exert gravitational force equal or greater than the gravittional force of the planet. The moment you go higher than the gravittional force of the planet, you are pulling the planet TOWARDS YOU. If you're not careful, the planet could be knocked off stable orbit and then your in deep poodoo. Keeping a stable gravimetric force could be possible, except you and the planet may start to orbit each other, in that case, the moment you leave or turn off the drive, the planet is still going to get a screwed up orbit.
This is why rockets are the best form of inter planetary travel inside of a solar system.

Okay.. now onto the hyperspace and subspace crap this guy tlaks about. Here we have the fanatical sci-fi junkie, uisng both hyperspace and subspace in the same chapter... This kid needs a serious physics lesson. How the fuck are we to access different dimensions? Why, if they got such great gravimetric drives (sorry, gravitational) can't they just use them to generate relative super-luminal veolicty?

The starbase, why does it need to use a hyper-atmoic reactor? Why not just fusion? It's not going anywhere soon, and power requirments compared to a starship are really quite low. Cloaking, bending light around an object would again, requires huge gravitional forces acting. Even when you're cloaked, it would be immposible to use the electro-magnetic spectrum (light, infrared, ultraviolet) to observe the suroundings. Use somthing like echolocation you say. Well, how does the cloaking device bend light but not anything else?

Bioships. This thing really makes my ass twitch. The sophristine use bio-ships. What's more stupid than that? Growing a starship would be difficult, take far more resources, have more engineering difficulties, and far easier to destroy. The cells are semi-permaeble, easily killed. You're not going to house a reactor in a cows gut are you? Is a wooden fence (organic) better than a solid metal fence? Thought not. You can easily make a self-destruct mechanism in a normal starship (make the power reactor(s) go boom). Making a starship out of heavy metals is easier, and better. A ship with solid metal armor is tougher thn a ship with shell over it. A metal ship can withstand the internal stress of high-energy production and usage, a bioship would burn. A metal ship could last almost indefinately, but a bioship would sooner or later die. A metal ship could take years or decades to build, but a bioship could take centuries to grow to maximum size and capability.

Simply put, the main idea behind the story was good. The actuall writing was bullshit.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love you. That was amazing. Bravo, very well done.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, thread starter. Although I generally enjoyed your post, I feel the compulsive need to nitpick. There are three parts of your post which I want to address.

Anonymous wrote:


1) The moment you go higher than the gravittional force of the planet, you are pulling the planet TOWARDS YOU.

2) Use somthing like echolocation you say. Well, how does the cloaking device bend light but not anything else?

3) Bioships. This thing really makes my ass twitch. The sophristine use bio-ships. What's more stupid than that? Growing a starship would be difficult, take far more resources, have more engineering difficulties, and far easier to destroy. The cells are semi-permaeble, easily killed. You're not going to house a reactor in a cows gut are you? Is a wooden fence (organic) better than a solid metal fence? Thought not. You can easily make a self-destruct mechanism in a normal starship (make the power reactor(s) go boom). Making a starship out of heavy metals is easier, and better. A ship with solid metal armor is tougher thn a ship with shell over it. A metal ship can withstand the internal stress of high-energy production and usage, a bioship would burn. A metal ship could last almost indefinately, but a bioship would sooner or later die. A metal ship could take years or decades to build, but a bioship could take centuries to grow to maximum size and capability.




1) This phrase is meaningless, as the range of the gravitational force is infinite.

2) As light is an E/M wave, and sound is a density wave, they are not dependent upon the same factors. Whereas light could be conceivably refracted by strong E or B field (probably stronger than could be generated by a "cloaking device" carried by an individual), such a field would have only secondary effects on a density wave, possibly via an altering of the states of the particles which compose the medium (most likely air).

3) All your ranting about the impossibility of bio ships relies on the postulation of a terrestrial biology (as evinced by talk of wooden fences and cow's guts). There could exist other, alien biologies which make use of more exotic compounds and therefore be hardier. You are discounting the ability of organisms to secrete protective substances. Just a an insect can have a chitonous shell, some bio-ship could produce substances to protect it from damage, extreme heat, etc. Although I do agree that the idea is still far-fetched.

And that's my two cents.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallen asleep in Physics class again.... What's going on with this forum?!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the Guest who wrote the long story: It's science fiction!!! Fictional Science... science that is not necesarily realistic!!! You don't read a story based on Sci-Fi movies and then critisize it if something doesn't seem possible. It's like saying that the Death Star is stupid caus when you blow up a planet all the tiny pieces of debris should fuck up the Death Star's hull. So shut up.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Thread Starter here*

Blaster:
1) Maybe I should clarify.
If you took your gravimetric-ship, and, over earth, created an artificial gravity well equivalent to over 1 g, that gravity well would pull the earth towards it. Yes gravity has infinite range, but the further two particles go, the gravity between them are weaker, that's why Earth isn't flying into Alpha Centauri's orbit. If you had more than 1 g pulling on earth in near-orbit, earth is screwed.

2) Sorry for not verifying, but I was treating light as a particle for this one, and I thought the Preds used gravity for cloaking. Photons and air would behave very similar in the presence of a gravitational well. If gravity was used to bend light, the field wouldn't differentiate between E/M radiation and air. Sorry for not speculating on other possibilities.

3) I donít think there's a biological substance that would survive nuclear explosions, solar flares, space dust, etc. The usual space hazards.
But I again apologize for not speculating that these ships could have been made with silicon compounds, and could therefore be suitable for space travel. However it would still take far more time to grow a silicon space vessel then it would to build one from heavy metals. Also, the ship would still die eventually (unless you make a super-organism that could repair its internal structure indefinitely), and you'd need to continually 'feed' the ship, so a bioships could be very difficult to use for extended periods in space. Bioships would also be vulnerable to disease, whatever the physiology. The enemy could create a virus or bacterium to spread a disease that could cripple the bioship.

Blaster, thanks for correcting my mistakes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aramor: I know it's science fiction. It's just too fun poking away at the scientific screw-ups of sci-fi. I'm not saying 'They may be Gods' was a bad story. Just one that was so unrealistic I needed to point out the problems.

I had friends who seriously believed star trek to be scientifically correct, that warp drive was possible and transporters would be a reality.
National Geographic posted a figure that really broke my heart in their November 2k4 issue: In a study, 45% of the US adult population believed that God created every single animal on earth within the last 1000 years, and they haven't changed since. In other words, 45% of the population believe that the Theory of Evolution is wrong. Despite the overwhelming evidence for evolution.

Basically, the mob is ignorant, and I'm just doing my part to enlighten the world.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of engaging in a Battle of the Nerds, I will post my rebuttal.

*Dusts off physics BA*

1) I'll be honest. I am really not very familiar with the sci-fi concept of the gravimetric drive, and I did not even read the story that you are criticizing. As I said, I was mainly just nitpicking here.
Take care with your use of the unit g, as it is a measure of acceleration and not force. Therefore a less massive object could achieve an acceleration of 1 or more g without exerting excessive force on a planet. Of course we were talking about huge ships, but I would need to understand the nature of this hypothesized gravimetric engine before I go and apply Newton's third law.

2) I was just assuming that the cloaking device relied on some kind of E or B field b/c the notion that it is caused by gravity is so preposterous. One needs a HUGE amount of mass to bend the path of light. As far as I know, this has only been observed in the phenomenon of gravitational lensing. This happens when light is refracted upon passing through the plane of a galaxy, as if that galaxy were a giant lens. Certainly a predators cloaking device could not produce such gravity, and if it did, the pred would find himself with quite a few other problems, such as a dramatic, fatal increase in weight Wink

3) Um, I don't really have anything more to say about the third point.

Thanks for the reply. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I think the Yautja are smart enough not to use it near planet's if the distance is too small. I take it they have a normal way of taking off. It's unlikely they use the Grav Drive to take off.

My chemistry teacher once said something that Deuterium or something is dangerous. Then I said: "But they use it in Star Trek, so it couldn't be that dangerous." And then my teacher said, sorta whispering: "I have to tell you something... it might come as a total shock, but Star Trek is not real." That was so funny. And a while after that I said (don't know why anymore): "Next thing you're gonna tell me Star Wars is fake too.." That was even more funny.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mebbe the Yautja use the Yuuzhan Vong principle. The YV r aliens in SW dat use biological ships, as some1 said above. The YV use animals namd Dovin Basals 2 travel thru hyperspace. The DB's lock on 2 the mass of a planet, apply a weak long range gravitational pull, and let the planet's stronger gravity pull 2 pull them thru space. This is similar 2 stretching a rubber band. The end held in a weaker grip is pulled towards the end held with a stronger grip. Strong gravity pull drags weaker gravity pulls towrads it. Th Dovin Basals were originally bioengineered to pull down moos from orbit. The impact of a medium sized moon can destroy a planet. The heroic Chewbacca met his tragic death in the SW novel Vector Prime, when a Dovin Basal pulled down a large moon from orbit, destroying Chewbacca and the planet he was on. *sob* I always had a soft spot 4 Chewie. Why him and not Han Solo?!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herpetologist wrote:
Why him and not Han Solo?!


Cause Han Solo is cool. Caus Han Solo is one of the main characters. Caus Han Solo is charismatic. Caus Han Solo is played by an actor with no facial hair. Caus Han Solo is not some dude in a furry suit. Caus Han Solo has a last name. Caus Han Solo's actor is famous.
Caus Chewbacca is basically a big, walking carpet. Caus Chewbacca talks in a way nobody can understand. Caus Chewbacca is hairy. Caus Chewbacca is really hairy. Caus Chewbacca is not Han Solo. Caus Chewbacca is just an overgrown Ewok. Caus Chewbacca did not kiss with Prinses Leia.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Thread starter*

Blaster:
Acceleration is measured in [distance] per [time squared]. Anything falling towards earth (without air resistance) would be accelerating 9.81 meters per seconds squared, or somthing like that.
G's are used to measure the force of inertia upon an accelerating object. Going 9.81 km/s2 would in fact produce force upon your body equal to the force of earth's gravity, in other words 1 g. Accleration can have similiar effects to gravity. It is theoretically possible to generate artifical gravity by accelerating.
Because of this similiarity, the measurments for acceleration and gravity are the same. At least in what I'm reading. Here, Earth, gravity: 9.8 m/s2... woah...

Gravitional lensing also occurs within galaxies. Neutron Stars and Blackholes can also bend light. But I think gravitic lensing from galaxies are the most observable.

Aramor: Maybe you didn't read the story. The "whine increased as the gravitimetric motors brought it to a halt 2 feet above the ground"... Gravimetric drive in use inside of a planetary atmosphere. This is what I critisized. apparently the yaujta are dumbasses.

Deuterium is in fact, I believe, an isotope of hydrogen, and can be used in nuclear fusion reactions, and otherwise is still flamable, I heard.
Dilithium is also mentioned in star trek, used to control matter/anti-matter reactions. Scientists use lithium to generate their anti-protons in particle accelerators. I don't even think dilithium exists or has the properties proposed.

Herpetologist: I don't understand, who wrote this thing about Yuuzhan Vong propulsion?
Long range gravitational pull? Graviational forces have infinte range, but travel only at the speed of light (hard to explain). You wouldn't need to 'establish' a 'connection' between two points (you could do it by simply having mass), but it would take a damn long time for the mass to start pulling you. Unless the YV could make gravitons tachyonic.
Why does everyone think that gravimetric drives functions like a rubber band? You simply contract space time in front of the ship and expand behind. Zip boing bonjour you're travelling through spacetime without moving. This is what has been called warp drive' (no connection to star trek warp drive which is more similiar to the hyper drive than you may think), but it's the same principle as the gravimetric drive.
However, the YV do have a pretty good idea about crashing moons onto planet surfaces using gravitational wells. It would actually be easier than using a death star.

And why did Chewbacca die? Because the author was a dumbass fanboy who didn't like wookies.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aramor wrote:
@ Guest: I think the time that passed btween Alien and Aliens is something like 70 or 80 years. That asshole from the company (forgot his name) told Riply this.


His name was Carter Burk, and Riply was out there for 57 years.
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